Becoming a Leader Worth Following | Dr. Benjamin Granger (Part 1)

🎧 Episode 208: Becoming a Leader Worth Following | Dr. Benjamin Granger (Part 1)

📝 Show Notes

What separates a leader people genuinely want to follow from one they simply tolerate?

In Part 1 of this two-part conversation, Sonnie sits down with Dr. Benjamin Granger, organizational psychologist and author of A Leader Worth Following, to explore the human side of leadership that most managers never learn in a training room.

Benjamin traces how a lifelong curiosity about human behavior led him into organizational psychology, and why that same curiosity is the single most underrated skill in any leader's toolkit.

Together, they unpack how leaders shape organizational culture every single day, not through big speeches or annual reviews, but through presence, communication style, and the micro-environments they create in every meeting, conversation, and decision.

From meeting dynamics to psychological safety in the workplace, this episode breaks down why talented team members stay silent, and what high-performing leaders do differently to unlock trust, contribution, and better collective thinking.

The core insight of this episode: leadership effectiveness isn't about being the loudest voice in the room. It's about creating the conditions for others to use theirs.

🔍 In This Episode We Cover:

• What organizational psychology reveals about effective leadership
• Why employees stay silent in meetings and what it signals about culture
• How leadership behaviors shape team culture in everyday interactions
• How to build psychological safety on your team and why it drives performance
• The power of asking better leadership questions
• Why nonverbal communication and body language often speak louder than words

🔑 Key Takeaways:

• Curiosity is one of the most critical and most overlooked leadership skills
• Leaders influence organizational culture through daily micro-interactions, not just big moments
• Silence in team meetings is almost always a leadership signal, not an employee problem
• The best leaders ask intentional questions, then actually listen to the answers
• Psychological safety in the workplace is a performance driver, not a soft skill
• Nonverbal cues shape how your message lands, often more than the words themselves

🔗 Connect with Dr. Benjamin Granger:

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/benjamin-granger-7147991b/
• Website: https://benjamingranger.com/
• Book: A Leader Worth Following

A rising tide raises all ships, and I invite you along on this journey to Evoke Greatness!

On a health journey too? Join me as I navigate Hashimoto's and Perimenopause like a BEAST 🔥

Rho Discount Code: https://rhonutrition.com/SONNIE15

Meraki Discount Code: http://www.merakimedicinal.com/EVOKEGREATNESS

Check out my website: www.evokegreatness.com

Follow me on:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/sonnie-linebarger-899b9a52/

https://www.instagram.com/evoke.greatness/

https://www.tiktok.com/@evoke.greatness

http://www.youtube.com/@evokegreatness

Transcript

Leadership Cues People Notice First

SPEAKER_01 0:00

This is something that many leaders already have very natural, unconscious command of body language. In fact, that's oftentimes the cues that the rest of us use to promote these people is that they're tall in stature oftentimes. They're physically fit. They have all these cues that humans have historically looked for in leaders. But yet you still see many, many, many situations where these leaders do not have.

Why Leadership Must Get Human

Meet Dr. Ben Granger

SPEAKER_02 0:34

Welcome to Evoke Greatness, the podcast for bold leaders and big dreamers who refuse to settle. I'm your host, Sonny. I started in Scrubs over 20 years ago, doing the gritty, unseen work, and climbed my way to CEO. Every rung of that ladder taught me something worth passing on. Lessons in leadership, resilience, and what it really takes to rise. You'll hear raw conversations, unfiltered truths, and the kind of wisdom that ignites something deeper in you. Your courage, your conviction, your calling. This show will help you think bigger, lead better, and show up bolder in every part of your life. This is your place to grow. Let's rise together. What if the biggest thing holding you back as a leader isn't your strategy, your experience, or even your execution, but how you show up? In part one of this conversation, we break down the human side of leadership, the part that no one teaches but everyone feels. We talk about why curiosity might be your greatest untapped leadership advantage, the subtle behaviors shaping your culture every single day, how leaders unknowingly shut down the very voices they need the most, and why the future of leadership isn't about doing more. It's about becoming more human. If you lead a team, a business, or even your family, this episode will challenge how you think about influence, communication, and what it really means to lead. Welcome back to another episode of Evote Greatness. Today's guest is someone who sits at the intersection of psychology, leadership science, and the future of work. Dr. Ben Granger is an organizational psychologist, leadership expert, and advisor to global companies on how to build stronger workplaces and better leaders. He's spent more than 15 years studying employee experience, leadership behavior, and organizational performance, including leading large-scale employee assessment and engagement initiatives at companies like Verizon and working with organizations through Altrics employee experience practice. He's also the author of the new book, A Leader Worth Following, where he argues that while technology and AI are rapidly transforming the worksplace, the leaders who succeed in the future will be those who master uniquely human skills like self-awareness, empathy, curiosity, and the ability to truly listen and influence others. In other words, leadership isn't getting easier. It's getting more human. Today we're going to talk about what it really takes to become a leader that people don't just have to follow, but that they actually want to follow. Ben, welcome to the show.

SPEAKER_01 3:21

Thanks for having me, Sonny.

SPEAKER_02 3:23

I always like to look backwards a little bit and understand how people kind of got to the place that they are today. And so, how did you first become fascinated with organizational psychology and just the behavior around leadership? I always love to figure this out because what I find are oftentimes my guests are were like really curious kids. And then something kind of, or as they started evolving into adults, and then something started to like really percolate around that. So I'd love to know a little bit about how did you kind of get to your current version of yourself?

When We Stop Asking Questions

SPEAKER_01 3:54

Yeah, I love that. I love the way you phrase that question. I've always been a curious kid. I was one of those kids in school that I always had questions. I was one of the first people to raise their hand in the room. I actually joke about this a lot in the Harry Potter films, Hermione Granger is kind of me. We share the same last name. But, you know, when she was like, I have the answer, I have the answer. You know, that was kind of me. I was that annoying school kid. But it was because I was always so curious. And when I was about 10th grade, I took my first psychology class as a high schooler and got really fascinated. Not only I really loved the teacher we had, but I started to realize like, whoa, there's this whole field about how people think. How meta can you get? And so that would that appealed to me immediately. Went into college with the, you know, I was full steam ahead on psychology. At that point, I was thinking I was going into clinical. I thought that was that's psychology. It's clinical, it's counseling. And then as I got a little further in my studies as an undergrad, I started to realize, well, one, you know, maybe clinical is not for me. Because one thing about me is I I feel people's pain. And so I knew that I started to realize like, this is gonna tear me apart. You know, God bless the people who can do it. I just, you know, I just couldn't, I knew I couldn't do it. But around that same time, I started to learn about other fields of psychology and started to realize there's tons of subfields. And one of them was organizational psychology. And this got me really interested because I started to realize, like, oh, there's this intersection between human psychology and business. That sounds interesting. So I started taking some classes in the business school, started taking some classes in sociology, ended up minoring in sociology, and I realized like, okay, this is this is my jam. So I went on to pursue a doctorate in organizational psychology. And the fascination with leadership kind of evolved organically. And as you, as you mentioned in your intro, I've done a lot of work on how to select employees, how to train and equip employees, how could what what decisions can organizations make that improve the experience of employees, but also improve productivity? What are the things that leaders can do to improve customer experience? And as I started to distill all those learnings over the last few years, I realized the ultimate pivot point is leader, is the leader, the leadership. And I think all of us are leaders in some ways, but that's what really it was just this kind of organic, hey, let's where's the curiosity taking me next? And that took me right to leadership.

SPEAKER_02 6:38

That's fascinating. I too, I was, as you were telling your story about being younger and being very curious and wondering how things worked, it kind of took me back. I was very curious when I was very young. And then about the time where kind of social components come into place, junior high, high school, I got, I didn't become less curious, but I stopped asking questions for kind of fear of looking a certain way. And so it's interesting because very young, I used to be the one raising my hand, stopped raising my hand about that junior high high school stage. And it's funny, as an adult now, I'm in the first row. I am kind of reverted, reverted back to that place where it's like, I don't worry about other people's opinions, frankly, at this point in my life. But I've gotten back to that almost childlike wonder of such intense curiosity and being like a lifelong learner.

SPEAKER_01 7:32

I love that. And you know, that actually deeply resonates with me because around the same time you mentioned seventh, eighth grade, ninth grade, I was much more concerned with being viewed as cool.

unknown 7:45

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 7:46

And more than anything, I didn't want to look like an idiot. Right. So I had those moments too where I just I held back. But then around 10th grade, 11th grade, I was like, you know, I don't care. And so I'm very much like you. That deeply resonates with me.

SPEAKER_02 8:03

Yeah, and I hope that people listening, like I love how these own aha moments come like live here as we're talking about this. I would, I would encourage people to just kind of take inventory around when did you stop being so curious? Because oftentimes kids, like just naturally, organically, they want to know they're the ones to ask a thousand questions. And I think oftentimes parents or adults are like, come on, another question. But you know, really pause and ask yourself, when was the last time you were just like wholeheartedly curious and asked the questions and didn't worry about that? I would love for people to almost have their own aha moments here to say, oh wow, you know what? It has been a while. Like what do I need to do to kind of lean back into that? So I love when these things kind of happen as we're having this conversation and they unfold for us, and thereby, as people are listening, will unfold for them as well.

SPEAKER_01 8:55

There's a great, there's a great line I ran into when actually when I was studying for the book, and I included it as an epigraph in my final chapter. It was a quote from Eleanor Roosevelt, which was I think it was I'm gonna paraphrase it, but it was something of the effect of if I could, if if a mother could wish anything from the fairy godmother for their child, it would be curiosity. And I was like, Yes, that is it. And let's lean into that, let's not lose that. And and like you're saying, Sonny, maybe there's a point where we we need to rediscover that because it's so important, especially in this age.

Politics And Silence At Work

SPEAKER_02 9:33

Right. Yeah, 100%. You've spent years studying that employee experience and leadership behavior inside of large organizations. What surprised you the most when you started observing how leaders actually influence people in the workplace?

SPEAKER_01 9:49

I think one of the big things, in a way it's surprising, in a way it's not, because of how common it is, is how much dominant behavior and political behavior and posturing happens in our organizations. One of the things I like to do as a consultant is I've worked with hundreds of household names, companies, brand names. And one of the things I often do is I'll I'll go into their headquarters and have conversations with various leaders within the organization. One of my favorite pastimes in doing that is to just observe the communication norms of the organization. And especially when you have people of different ranks in a meeting. One of the things I look for is how often do the folks lower in rank speak up? When do they speak up? Do they at all? Do they defer to the leader? There's a lot I glean from the communication norms in the organization. And anecdotally, there's a strong correlation between that and what we typically see in their employee experience scores. And also, you know, sometimes there's a little politics going on. There's people looking over people's shoulders saying, hey, you know, g give us good ratings. And that's where you tend to see the worst type of cultures and the worst type of leadership norms is when it's all about the number and it doesn't matter how you get to the number. So a lot of that stuff, it it's it surprises me in a way to see that behavior reinforced and still go on to this day. But in a way, it doesn't surprise me at all because it's so common.

The Power Pause In Meetings

SPEAKER_02 11:33

And observing, it's it's funny, just being reflective on leadership and what we've experienced as our own lived experience, observing in meetings and board meetings, things like that, and where you typically have the kind of head or lead of that meeting is the one who shares all the information. And oftentimes what you see, or maybe what we've experienced, is that there's a lot of shaking of heads around the table, but maybe not a whole lot of contribution around thoughts. And what's interesting is when you pull together a group of people who aren't used to having a culture where we really encourage like open conversation and even like some healthy heated debate, I think is not a bad thing for a company. And how people are so reserved. And I always like to insert kind of like a question and then do what I refer to as like one of those power pauses where like everybody's squirming because they don't want to be the first one to say something, but yet not leading any more conversation until we start getting some engagement. And it's like it's probably the most uncomfortable 20 seconds of people's lives is it feels like five minutes where no one's saying anything, and I don't know if I should say something. I have a thought, and and then someone eventually gets uncomfortable enough to to contribute. And then it like opens up and then the the room gets a little bit more inviting, and the air is like, oh, okay, we actually can share. But that's like a trick that I have have kind of used in when bringing new people around the table is like, hey guys, like we're it's gonna, it's gonna be uncomfortable. That's all right. Like let's uh let's feel like we can contribute, though. I think that's a big portion, is oftentimes people feel like they're expected to just sit around the table and and nod their head yes.

SPEAKER_01 13:16

Yeah, I love that term too, the power pause. I'm gonna I'm I'm take I'm stealing that one, certainly. That's a great one.

SPEAKER_02 13:23

Yeah, steal away.

Questions As Vulnerable Leadership

SPEAKER_01 13:24

I love that. I love that. And because you're right, it it creates that tension to where somebody's got to step up. But one of the other things you mentioned that I think is so important, and this is actually a characteristic of some of the best leaders I've ever observed, is they ask questions themselves. And by doing so, you know, I view asking a question, especially for somebody who's in a very senior position, who's above other people in the hierarchy, when they ask questions of those who are lower in rank, it's a small show of vulnerability. Because what it shows is there's something that I don't know that I think you can help with, or maybe you know the answer. That's a small show of vulnerability, and that is contagious, especially when it comes from people in senior positions. Another thing I've noticed through my observations, and also there's there's, I think, some academic research to support this too, is that some of the best senior leaders I've ever run into are slow to speak. When you're in a group setting, for example, a lot of times junior leaders will jump in feeling like they have to be the one to guide the conversation. And look, I'm gonna raise my hand. That was me earlier in my leadership days. I was that person. So I'm not here preaching like I'm, you know, you crazy people doing this. I'm guilty of it too. And I think a lot of us are. But as you progress in your leadership journey, you start to realize that that's not really that when when someone in authority says something, it has an anchoring effect. And that might not be the best way to anchor. Sometimes the leader does need to take the reins and just move forward. Sometimes we have to make quick decisions and be decisive. That is absolutely true. But especially when we're trying to get the best ideas into the open, when we're trying to open the aperture, trying to get innovative and creative, asking those questions and then sitting quietly, the power pause, as you said, letting other people chime in and then holding your tongue till the end. Really good practices, and I've seen that from some really effective leaders.

Sponsor Break Roe Nutrition

Managing The Constant Talker

SPEAKER_02 15:31

Okay, quick pause to tell you about my partners at Roe Nutrition. I came to them as a customer first. I have both Hashimoto's and I am smack dab in the middle of perimenopause. Their liposomal supplements have been a game changer for my brain fog, fatigue, and inflammation. I'm currently taking their NAD plus, glutathione, and curcumin, and I recently added in both collagen and creatine. Anyone who knows me knows I only put my name behind what I actually use, and Roe has earned it. You can use the code SUNY15S O-N-N-I-E-15 for 15% off at roe nutrition.com, or you can click the link in the show notes and it'll take you right there. All right, let's hop back into the episode. You make a really good point, and it's interesting because oftentimes in a group like that, there is typically someone who has no problem. And it's and oftentimes it's kind of probably through some sort of insecurity, like I want to make sure my ideas are put out here. And and so sometimes there's a little bit below the surface. But typically in a group, there's usually one at least one person who feels the need to interject all the time. What guidance would you have for leaders who try to who are trying to temper the environment to not have one person always contributing? I think as leaders, we need to be really mindful and self-aware that it's it's not always about the thoughts that we have, right? Sometimes it is, to your point, putting that question out there and actually getting really quiet and letting folks sit with it. But when how do we temper the folks who always feel like they need to have something to say that occupies space that we would rather have people who maybe haven't found their voice or gotten a chance to speak up? So we can kind of temper the room.

SPEAKER_01 17:18

This is a great question. This is often brought up. I hear this question asked, sometimes in the form of how do you get introverts to weigh in? Because sometimes the introverts have great ideas and they're just, it's it's not that they don't have good ideas, it's that it can be uncomfortable. It's not just about introverts uh uh uh being introverted either. But one of the things I think I've seen leaders do, some of the things I've started to do is um in a nice, friendly way, direct questions to individuals in the room. So, in other words, not full-blown Socratic method putting people on the spot, but rather say, you know, hey Sonny, curious your thoughts here. You I know you're you're in this space and give a nod to their expertise. Another quick trick, and there's a power in this word, advice, asking somebody for advice. So in the room, if if Jen's kind of quiet in the room and saying, you know, Jen, from a marketing perspective, I know you're looking at it from this angle. What advice would you have to the group as we go forward? So I think calling people out, but doing it in a way that nods to their expertise, knots to their perspective. And even the word, like what's your advice activates part of the brain for people to feel like, oh, it's comfortable, it's safe for me to jump in. And I actually want to sort of pre-engage the brain.

SPEAKER_02 18:41

Yeah, I think everyone could take a note of that. Because sometimes trying to trying to guide a meeting can be frustrating or it can kind of go off the rails sometimes. But I think being able to, to your point, highlight people's expertise, bring, invite them into the conversation when maybe they didn't feel overly comfortable or confident to step into it themselves, not only equals out the room a little bit, but it also draws them out, as you said, to create like a psychologically safe environment where they can share what's on their mind. They can feel like they're actually giving advice that people are really listening to.

SPEAKER_01 19:22

Right. And it and it nods to them that their perspective is valued. We need your perspective because you see things differently. You have a different view, you have different lenses that you look at this through. And we need to hear that. We need that shared. So that works extremely well. It's very rare that when someone's invited to speak, that they'll stay silent. And a lot of times, even the introverts, once you get them going, they they will talk and they'll offer. And I think that's a that's one misconception about people who are introverted, is that they're not social. That is not what it being introverted means. What it means is that it takes a little bit more energy from them to do so. But they can absolutely be vocal. Many of them are very much. They just don't necessarily get a lot of energy from those environments like us extroverts do. So, anyway, just wanted to close the loop on that, not to make it all about personality. But I so agree with your perspective here, Sonny. And I think it's so important. And and then back to your question, too, for those, you know, how do you direct it toward the people who are just, you know, always the ones kind of like I used to be when I was in high school, you know, the one who would jump in and have all the ideas. You could just respectfully say to those people, like, hey, great, thank you for offering that. But I'd like to hear what Bob has to say. I'd like to hear what Jen has to say. They are looking at this from a different perspective, and then invite them in. And with them speaking, you kind of close the door with a crack in it for the for those people who like to dominate the room.

Body Language Shapes Culture Daily

SPEAKER_02 20:53

I think that's a great approach. And I think some people struggle with that. And so these tips are real tangible things that someone can do in the next meeting where they can kind of get a little bit more of the reins to allow for it to be a larger conversation versus just dominated by one person. From your research with organizations, what is one leadership behavior that most people don't realize is shaping their culture every day?

unknown 21:18

Hmm.

Part Two Teaser And Farewell

SPEAKER_01 21:20

I wouldn't say it's a behavior, but I would say it's a it's a whole body of activity and behavior would certainly fit into it. And that is effective body language. One of the things that I actually did a tremendous amount of research in, even back when I was in graduate school, I was just sort of a pet interest of mine was the role of body language in communication. And I think this is something that many leaders already have very natural, unconscious command of body language. In fact, that's oftentimes the cues that the rest of us use to promote these people is that they have, you know, they're tall in stature, oftentimes. They're physically fit. They have all these cues that humans have historically looked for in leaders. But yet you still see many, many, many situations where these leaders have not, do not have conscious control over their body language. And more importantly, they don't have a good understanding or at least appreciation or awareness of the images that form in people's minds based on what they do with their bodies or don't do. Some great examples here. And by the way, this is probably the most fascinating aha for me as I was doing all this research over the last few years, is when I went back and started looking at the development of human speech. In other words, how long ago did we learn to talk to each other? How long ago did we learn to write to each other? And the most estimates, this is disputed. There are some estimates that go a little further than this, but most anthropologists agree that humans learn to talk and listen to each other somewhere between 100 to 200,000 years ago. Now, for most people, that probably sounds like a really long time. But if you zoom out and you look at mankind's history, if you look at our primates and our ancient ancestors, we have been communicating nonverbally for many millions of years. And yet, just basically yesterday, from a cosmic standpoint, we learned to talk. And an hour ago, we learned to write. And so when you think about it from when you zoom way out, right? Because we think in terms of days and weeks and years and maybe decades, but if you zoom out and you look at evolutionary history, it is remarkably recent. And so, but today, I mean, how often, Sonny, do we rely purely on our words in black and white? We send an email, we say something on a webcast, and we assume we often operate as if whatever we said and the intention behind it and the meaning behind it was conveyed. That is never true. Let me repeat that. That is never true. We always have to appreciate that everyone has a unique lens, including us, that we look at the world through. It is completely unique to us. And so when we communicate, especially using low fidelity forms like in written form, not to say not to write. I just wrote a book, right? It's in black and white. But so we gotta have to complement that. But again, back to your question, what I think leaders really need to consider better is the power of body language and the importance of body language and nonverbal communication in getting points across. The last thing I'll note here is that one useful framing I've found very helpful in my own communication is to think of it less as I'm trying to communicate an idea. That's certainly true, but what I'm really aiming to do, and what I challenge myself when I communicate to aim to do is to create a mental image in the mind of the other person or people that's similar to mine. And sometimes in our field of organizational psychology, we call that shared mental models. And there's a tremendous amount of research on when groups have shared mental models of a problem, of a business problem, they attack it much more effectively, much more creatively. That I think is a really good goal to aim for because that changes the way that you think about how you communicate. Is it enough to send the email? Is it enough to send the email with a TDLR, you know, too long didn't read at the top with a little summary? Is that enough based on what you're communicating? Do you need visuals? Do you need to get on a video call? Do you need to get in person with your team, with your organization to really get across this mental image that is so important for me to share with you that we need to use much more high fidelity communication and body language is one of the ways where we can enhance.

SPEAKER_02 26:17

Okay, you know the routine. This is where we hit the pause button. If part one got you thinking differently about how you show up as a leader, part two is where we take it even deeper. We are diving into the essential human skills leaders must master for the future, how AI is reshaping leadership and what will matter most because of it. The difference between managing performance and inspiring followership, and the specific behaviors that separate leaders people tolerate from leaders people trust. If you want to become the kind of leader people don't just work for, but believe in, then you're not going to want to miss part two. Hope to see you back next week. If today's episode challenged you, moved you, or lit a fire in your soul, don't keep it to yourself. Share it with somebody who's ready to rise. Can I ask you to take 30 seconds to leave a review? It's the best way to say thank you and help this show reach more bold leaders like you. Because this isn't just a podcast, it's a movement. We're not here to play small. We're here to lead loud, one bold and unapologetic step at a time. Until next time, stay bold, stay grounded, and make moves that make mediocre uncomfortable.