Evoke Greatness Podcast

Why Speaking Up at Work Is Harder for Some Leaders, with Minda Harts (Part 1)

• Sonnie Linebarger • Episode 206

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🎧 Episode 206: Why Speaking Up at Work Is Harder for Some Leaders, with Minda Harts Part 1

What is staying quiet at work actually costing you?

Not just the missed moment…

 But the opportunity, the growth, the confidence, and the standard you’re setting for what you’re willing to tolerate.

In Part 1 of this conversation, I sit down with Minda Harts, Author of Talk to Me Nice: The Seven Trust Languages for a Better Workplace, to unpack the hidden cost of silence, and why so many high-performing leaders find themselves navigating environments where speaking up feels risky.

From early career experiences of inequity and internal conflict, to the realization that silence carries a cost just as real as speaking up, this conversation will challenge how you think about your voice, your agency, and your responsibility in the rooms you’re in.

Because staying quiet doesn’t keep things neutral… it shapes everything.

We explore:

  • The real cost of staying silent at work and how it impacts your career growth, confidence, and leadership presence 
  • How to speak up with confidence in high-stakes workplace conversations without damaging relationships or credibility
  • Why trust issues at work are often communication breakdowns and how unmet expectations quietly erode performance and culture 
  • The power of self-advocacy and personal agency in leadership, especially for women navigating visibility, influence, and growth
  • How using your voice creates permission for others, shaping team culture, trust, and psychological safety 

🔑 Key takeaways:

  • Staying quiet doesn’t protect you… it positions you exactly where you are
  • The conversations you avoid are often the ones that unlock your next level
  • Trust is built or broken in the smallest moments… not the biggest ones
  • You don’t need permission to advocate for yourself… but you do need courage
  • Every time you stay silent, you reinforce the standard you’re willing to accept

Quotes to remember:

  • “If I don’t say anything, that’s a cost. If I do say something, that’s a cost too.” 
  • “My voice is tied to someone else’s freedom.” 
  • “We have more power than we think we do.” 
  • “Silence doesn’t keep things neutral… it shapes everything.”
  • “The standard you accept becomes the culture you experience.”

đź”— Connect with Minda:

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When Silence Starts To Hurt

SPEAKER_00

When I entered into my corporate role, I was just happy to be there, like many of us, when we get our first jobs and you're making a little bit of money. And sometimes you laugh at things that actually make you want to cry, right? Or you know that you're not being paid the same as some of your colleagues and you're going above and beyond. And and I started to see that uh meritocracy wasn't created equal for everybody. And if I don't say anything, then that's a cost, right? And if I do say something about it, then that's a cost too. And so I decided.

Meet Minda Hartz And The Book

SPEAKER_01

Welcome to Evoke Greatness, the podcast for bold leaders and big dreamers who refuse to settle. I'm your host, Sonny, CEO, entrepreneur, and someone who's spent over 20 years building, leading, and learning what it really takes to rise. Every step of that journey has taught me something worth passing on lessons in business, leadership, resilience, and the psychology behind it all. Here you'll hear raw conversations, unfiltered truths, and the kind of wisdom that ignites something deeper in you, your courage, your conviction, and your calling. This show will help you think bigger, lead better, and show up bolder in every part of your life and business. This is your place to grow. Let's rise together. Welcome back to another episode of Evoke Greatness. Today's guest is someone whose voice, work, and leadership have helped shape some of the most important conversations happening in workplaces right now. I'm delighted to welcome Minda Hartz to the Evoke Greatness Podcast. Minda is a best-selling author, speaker, and workplace equity expert who has spent her career advocating for women, especially women of color, to have the conversations that move careers and cultures forward. You may know her from her powerful books as the author of The Memo and Right Within and You Are More Than Magic, or from her work advising organizations on how to build more honest, inclusive, and human workplaces. Today I'm excited to share that we're diving into her newest book, Talk to Me Nice: The Seven Trust Languages for a Better Workplace, which centers on something so many of us struggle with but rarely name clearly: communication, how we talk to each other, how we advocate for ourselves, how we set boundaries, ask for what we need, and still lead with integrity and respect. This conversation is about having the courage to speak up, the wisdom to choose your words intentionally, and the power that comes from learning how to be heard without losing yourself in the process. Minda brings both truth and tenderness to these topic topics. And I know this conversation will leave you reflecting, challenged, and better equipped to navigate the rooms you're in. So, Minda, welcome to the show.

SPEAKER_00

Thank you for having me. Honored to be here with you.

SPEAKER_01

Well, I always like to go backwards a little bit before we kind of talk about your current story, right? Like so many times we get to this place, and the part of the story, part of the magic is actually how we got to the place, to our current reality. You've built a career around helping people have conversations that change outcomes. What personal or professional moment first showed you just how costly silence can be?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, that's a great question to start with. I would say personal experience definitely lends the work that I do today. I think when I entered into my corporate role, I was just happy to be there, like many of us, when we get our first jobs and you're making a little bit of money, and sometimes you laugh at things that actually make you want to cry, right? Or you know that you're not being paid the same as some of your colleagues and you're going above and beyond. And I started to see that meritocracy wasn't created equal for everybody. And if I don't say anything, then that's a cost, right? And if I do say something about it, then that's a cost too. And so I decided to sweep those things under the rug for at least 12 years, and it started to impact like my mental health, you know, anxiety uh was high and all of these different things just because I was accepting a lot of behaviors that I had normalized that other people were exhibiting. And I realized that I can be part of the solution or continue to help perpetuate bad behaviors in the workplace. And when it started to really impact my well-being to where the point where I was having panic attacks inside of meetings because of being bullied in the workplace, I realized that I had a responsibility to make the workplace better than I found it. And it was at that kind of crossroads moment where I was crying in my car. Maybe some of your listeners have had those moments where you're just like, this what? Is this what it takes to get the gold watch at the end of the day? You know, I don't want it if it's gonna be like this. And and I realized that I had more power than I thought I did. And if I could help one person, including myself, then it was worth the the journey. And so it was in that moment in the car where I said, work can be better. It doesn't have to be like this.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, it's funny that you say that because that really resonates with a situation I was in recently where it made me reflect back on my career and my life. And I was in a situation where people were saying some things that all of a sudden it became so clear to me that I am unwilling to do the obligatory laugh or the sort of showing that maybe you're not in favor of it, but not opposed to it. And I just thought I am too old and too far along in my career to be in a situation where I do that. And so my choice is to exit this conversation altogether. I don't have to make it comfortable. Matter of fact, my exit probably made it uncomfortable. And I think that in itself is a statement too.

SPEAKER_00

It's revolutionary, right? Because we're saying we do have a choice. And I think sometimes we've told ourselves a story that we don't, right? Yes. Yeah. Yes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

To get to, you know, anytime you're inside of a company, and sometimes it's a little bit perception. I think back in my career of what do I feel like I need to do to continue growing and climbing? And sometimes it's it's what people put out there as these are not necessarily perceptions, but kind of these are the realities if you want to grow or if you want to do this, that, and the other. And I think that's why I love conversations like this, because these are empowering when we give people, and they shouldn't need permission, but sometimes they need to hear that you don't have to be the obligatory laugh. You don't have to stick around in those situations. Matter of fact, what would it look like to continue to grow in that kind of environment? Is that what you really want? And that's a cost, right?

SPEAKER_00

There's a sacrifice involved in that. And it also signals to other people that you're okay with this, right? And maybe I always say that my voice is tied to someone else's freedom. So if I do the thing that I know is right, it's going to signal to somebody else who's also feeling the same way I'm feeling, right? And giving them permission to say, you know what, I'm glad she did that because now that's how I was feeling too. Yes.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, it it almost creates choice inside of a room, right?

SPEAKER_00

Yep.

SPEAKER_01

There is then the opportunity to say, I don't have to just be accepting of this because someone is showing me a path to say that I do have a choice. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00

That's powerful.

Why Trust Breaks In Workplaces

SPEAKER_01

That is powerful. Your new book, Talk to Me Nice, centers on communication with both clarity and self-respect, which is obviously already woven into what we're talking about. Why was this message the message that you felt compelled to write about now?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, um I I actually started thinking about this during the pandemic. I was getting up to go to the bathroom at like three o'clock in the morning, right? The older you get, Sunny, you have to use the bathroom more often for better or worse. And I kept thinking about what are our trust languages? Um, if we have romantic relationships like the five or romantic languages, like the five love languages, what are those for our workplace? What are those for when things are missing? And and when people tell me, oh, I don't trust my manager or I don't trust my colleague, what they're really saying is there's an expectation that's not being met. And it's less of a trust issue and more of a communication issue. And if we had the language to be able to solve for this instead of just sweeping things under the rug and steadily kind of festering and having these moments of, I don't trust this person, what would it look like on the other side of that? Kind of similar to our conversation earlier, right? If I had the language to be able to articulate that, hey, I'm not trying to demonize you or shame you, but this is how, this is what I need to do my best work. And I think sometimes we don't think we have the power or the agency to be able to tell somebody is, you know, hey, I would trust more if I had a little more transparency, a little more clarity, a little more honesty. And I wanted to give people language for that because at the end of the day, we have nothing without trust, right? No productivity. It's tied to the bottom line. And so I felt like we were trying to solve for other things in the workplace when we needed some foundational aspects to go back and say, you know what, let's get on the same page so then we can be more productive in harmony, right? Yes.

Transparency Sensitivity Follow Through

SPEAKER_01

You created the kind of the seven trust languages, and I think they're applicable, obviously, to different situations. Would you mind going through a couple? We don't have to go through all seven, but go through a couple that you feel like are are most applicable that are going to resonate with folks.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, it's funny that you say that because when I wrote this book originally for the workplace, and but I have so many people who will message me and say, I'm using this at home, right? Because this is just standard language that we need to be showing up for the people that love us the most, right? Or the people that we love the most. And so just a few that I think are really important, especially in the context of how we're living in the world we're living in today. I think number one is that transparency, uh, that's a trust language. And that's just clarity and honesty. If I see that there's smoke coming out of the chimney, I don't need you to tell me there's nothing to see here, right? You may not know why the smoke is coming out of the chimney, but tell me, you know what? Yes, the smoke is coming out of the chimney. Let me find out why. Right now I don't know. But once I have some additional information, I'll let you know. But I'm not gonna treat you like you're crazy and that you don't hear the smoke alarms going, right? So you just need a little more clarity. And a lot of people, they'll say they don't trust someone, but what they really want is just a little more honesty, right? But how do you say that? You can't just come to you and say, hey, Minda, I don't trust you anymore. You're not gonna get the response that you want from me. But if we have a better conversation around clarity and honesty, then that's something that can work. I think another trust language that people really need in their toolkit these days is the language of sensitivity. That's being mindful of our behaviors, our words, and our actions. So maybe six months ago, that joke might have been okay to say, but today, do I have the right to say that to this group that's in front of me? Do I have the right to, you know, if you are living in Southern California and there's wildfires for me to tell you, oh, just get to your near Starbucks so you can log into the year-end review, right? No, being sensitive is saying, hey, I know I may live in New York. I know there's a lot going on right now. Do you need anything from us? Get somewhere safe. And when you're able, we can have this conversation later in the year, right? Instead of productivity, productivity. And I think that we're just forgetting about the human aspect of people, that people are human first. And, you know, I think the other language is sensitivity. I think being mindful about our behaviors, our actions, and our words. Just because a joke might be funny to us, it may not be funny to everybody in the room, right? Or just because that I believe is important may not be as important or culturally relevant to the group that I'm speaking to. So have I earned the right to say this, right? Or is am I being sensitive enough, essentially empathetic, emotionally intelligent? And I think there's a lack of that in a lot of our social circles in the workplace, right? We're very passionate about something that may not be as someone else may be as passionate about. And so I think that's important. And then lastly, I think follow through, just keeping our word. I think oftentimes we say yes to a lot of things. I'm gonna make that email introduction, and then what happens? We forget, right? Then we offer to do it again, and people are like, I can't trust you because you never do what you say you're gonna do. And that even saying when I can't do it is also following up, right? And I think there's all these small erosions of trust that happen, not intentionally, but unintentionally, that we can solve for with the right language.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I love that follow-up. I've framed it for the working environment as honoring our word, even with my kids, honoring our word, right? And honoring our word doesn't mean we necessarily, to your point, like if something is due by 6 p.m., honoring your word, part of that, if if you're not done by 6 p.m. and you don't have that to submit, it's saying, hey, I wanted to let you know before 6 p.m., here's the update. But when we don't do what we say we're gonna do, how can, number one, other people trust us? But how can we trust ourselves? Our brain is constantly paying attention to what we're telling it and what we're exhibiting. And we, by those actions, by not following up, we prove it to be right that we aren't trustworthy. Thousand percent. Going back to the sensitivity one, when you were using that reference, it really made me think about how much is self-awareness woven into sensitivity and really being mindful of situations, even people. Like you said, somebody who's in LA and you're talking about wildfires, like there's a sense of self-awareness you have to have as a leader, as a human, to be able to meet someone at that at that place where they are with a sense of sensitivity.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. And I think the lack of, right, just because it's not you're not experiencing it or it doesn't happen to your community doesn't mean that it's not important, right? And so if we don't what what did our families used to say? If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say it at all. That's right.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Well, and you know, I think many leaders, they know what to say, but they almost freeze in the moment. What's happening beneath the service when someone struggles to speak up?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I think that's important to know because I think we've all been there, right? We don't, and especially I think in the climate that we live in, you don't want to say the wrong thing. So sometimes you don't say anything at all, right? Or you just hope it goes away. And I think that people want us to be vulnerable. They want us to say, hey, I may not get this right every single time, but I want to make sure that your humanity and dignity is still in tech and my integrity is still here, right? So I'm always gonna do the right thing. I may not say the right thing all the time, but hopefully I put enough in the trust bank account that you understand my intentions, you've gotten to know me, and that if I do slip up, you know, in a way, that there's a way to get trust back on the tracks. But I think so many people are just like paralyzed by am I gonna say the wrong thing? Am I gonna use the wrong words? And yes, you're human, you're gonna do the wrong things, right? But it's how we recover, it's how we demonstrate another trust language, our behavior over time so that people can say, oh, that was just a one-time event, but that's not how Minda typically shows up, right? And so giving a little grace as well.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I love that trust bank account that provides a real visual of additions and withdrawals. And what is your balance with uh, and that could be that could look differently, right? Because we all, we all have the professional side, but we also had the personal side too. And and life is life. And and there will be the times where we put our foot in our mouths. But if you have enough additions or deposits in there that that offsets the some of those times when you have a withdrawal, I really love the reference because I'm a very visual person. So it's like, oh, I can see that. I can see exactly how that works.

SPEAKER_00

Right. Because we all are gonna fall short, right? We're all gonna like be like, oh, but we want them to remember, okay, well, typically speaking, Minda is trustworthy, right? That one time. But if I constantly demonstrate this behavior of being untrustworthy, you're not gonna trust that I can do any better than what I've been showing you.

Power Dynamics And Feedback Culture

SPEAKER_01

Right. Right, absolutely. How do power, hierarchy, and identity shape the way conversations unfold at work? And what do people often underestimate about those same dynamics?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, it's funny that you bring that up because I do a lot of talks at different companies and workshops, and I'll have some managers say, Well, that's not happening on my team. My team would tell me. And I say, Would they? Would they tell you? You know, what have you done to create that environment where everybody, maybe your favorites or your go-to people might have that relationship with you to be honest with you without fear of retribution? But what about the introvert over there? Or what about the new person that just started on your team that may be experiencing some of these things, but they don't want because of the power dynamics, how do you tell your manager that something isn't working? And without it seeming like a critique and or vice versa. And so I think managers or leaders in particular, we have to be self-aware and emotionally intelligent to know that it takes a lot of courage for somebody to tell us the truth and tell us what they're experiencing because so many times we've seen it go left in other environments. And so I think leaders have to be the ones to role model, to be the coaches to say, this is the standard, right? Feedback, another trust language, is having a loop. So I can't be the only one that gives feedback. I have to also create the space so that everybody feels comfortable when trust is present, even how you respond, we can have a tough conversation and still keep trust at the center. We don't have to diminish each other or fear monger, right? And I think managers and leaders have to remember that they're in a position of power. And so it's important for us to give a little runway for people to say that two things can be true at the same time. Just because I have something to say or I'm experiencing micromanagement or whatever doesn't mean you're a bad person, doesn't mean I don't want to be on the team, right? But here's how we create the space where everybody feels like they're being acknowledged for their work. And if they're not, then their space to talk about it and rectify it. Because at the end of the day, we all just want to do our best work without all the drama. Right.

SPEAKER_01

Well, that's a perfect segue because I wanted to ask you how can someone advocate for themselves confidently without feeling like they're being labeled as, you know, dare quotes for those who are listening, difficult or too much.

SPEAKER_00

Um, because we know that's real, right? We know that if especially I have uh there's a data point that says that some male managers don't feel comfortable giving women direct reports feedback because they don't want to seem mean, so they don't give them anything. And I say, well, that's also an erosion of trust because they expect you to be advocating on their behalf in the rooms that they're not in, right? And it's an opportunity, and it's a missed opportunity for growth when you don't provide people those opportunities, right? And so we we have to get over those things. But what I will say is in my personal experience, I remember I had a manager and he would always call me a rock star. Uh, you know, all these pet names that we've all heard over time. But for some reason, I still did not feel like a rock star. And I felt like I didn't know where I stood with him because he never gave me any feedback, no meaningful and consistent insight. And so I thought, well, if he never gives me any insight, could I really be a rock star? Or is he just, you know, pacifying me over time? And so I created this narrative in my head that he didn't trust me, he didn't want me to be successful, that it was all lip service, right? And part of it, I had to step out of my feelings and say, wait a second, is he aware that you need feedback, Minda? Or is there an expectation that you are putting on him that he's not even aware of? And it's creating this trust narrative in your mind. So what if you have a conversation like a big girl and say, hey, I really appreciate it when you provide me feedback after a project that I've worked on because it helps me with the next one. Is that something that we can schedule time to have those conversations so that I know that either I'm going the right way or there's some room for improvement? Is that something we can do together? And once I had that conversation with him, he's like, Oh, yeah, I didn't think you needed that. No news, good news. You're doing your thing, right? And so again, there was this miscommunication of he's like, you're doing your thing. I don't have to be thinking about you. And I'm saying I do need this, right? And once I was able to put that on the table in a way that still enhanced trust, right? Because I could have gone to him and said, you don't trust me, I can't trust you, I'm leaving, right? I'm finding a new job. That would have got us nowhere. But at least I set an expectation and he was either going to meet me there or not. But I think a lot of it is self-advocacy, that's part, that's part of our control. I can't control how he responds to that, but I can control how I bring that information in fact and not feeling.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, absolutely. And I think that probably happens more than we'd care to admit, where there are these kind of perceptions in our mind that until we actually address it and say, hey, you know, asking for the feedback, them recognizing, oh, you know, I didn't think you needed that. And then all of a sudden you like elevate the plane of communication and that relationship in the process. And so that's a really great opportunity. Or conversely, you recognize that this person's like, no, I'm not going to give you, you know, whatever, like kind of worst case scenario, or it doesn't work out. And that's okay too, because again, like the exploration of choice is probably the most important thing. And choice is advocacy for yourself.

SPEAKER_00

It absolutely is. And, you know, especially in a climate where it's hard to find a new job or it's a little difficult, or maybe it's taking people a little bit longer, you owe it to yourself to have the conversation. So you have the information on what to do next, right? Either this is a place for you or it's not, right? And but you need to know that because if we fill in the blanks and create the story, it's probably going to be anything worse than it actually is sometimes.

SPEAKER_01

Okay, you know the routine. This is where we hit the pause button. If part one of this episode made you rethink the cost of staying quiet, then part two is where we shift into action. We're getting into the real conversations that most people avoid. How to advocate for yourself without being labeled difficult or too much, how to set boundaries that are clear and actually respected, and how to navigate high-stakes conversations when emotions are high and the pressure is real. Minda also breaks down practical trust languages that you can start using immediately in your leadership, your team, and your life. If you've ever walked out of a conversation thinking, I should have said something, part two is going to show you how to do it differently next time. Make sure to join us next week for part two. If today's episode challenged you, moved you, or lit a fire in your soul, don't keep it to yourself. Share it with someone who's ready to rise in their leadership, their business, and their life. And if you haven't already, I'd be so grateful if you took 30 seconds to rate and review the podcast. It's one of the most powerful ways to support the show and help us reach more bold leaders like you. Because this isn't just a podcast, it's a movement. We're not here to play small. We're here to lead loud and elevate how we think, lead, and execute one bold and unapologetic step at a time. Until next time, stay bold, stay grounded, and make moves that make mediocre uncomfortable.

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Sonnie Linebarger

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