The Inside Story of the Rise of the Self-Help Empire: Sex, Power, and Transformation with Marcia Martin (Pt. 2)

🎧 Episode 189: The Inside Story of the Rise of the Self-Help Empire: Sex, Power, and Transformation with Marcia Martin (Pt. 2)

In this episode of Evoke Greatness, we continue our powerful conversation with Marcia Martin, a pioneering force in personal development and one of the original architects of the Human Potential Movement.

In Part 2, Marcia takes us even deeper behind the curtain — into the patterns that shaped her leadership, the dynamics of power as a woman in male-dominated rooms, and the hard-won wisdom that comes from decades of reinvention, influence, breakdowns, and breakthroughs.

We dive deep into:

 • How childhood patterns shape our leadership and relationships as adults

 • Navigating ego, authority, and credibility as a woman in male-dominated spaces

 • The difference between demanding respect and attracting it

 • How high-achieving women claim their voice without shrinking their power

 • Why leadership is an action, not a title, and how to speak reality into existence

 • Understanding language as the bridge between intention and outcomes

 • Fame, power, and blind spots — and how leaders can stay grounded

 • The necessity of facing your “shadow” to become who you’re meant to be

 • Reinvention, resilience, and evolving publicly without apologizing for your growth

 • Why centering yourself before you act transforms your decisions and your life

🔑 Key takeaways:

 1 Leadership isn’t a title — it’s the capacity to move things forward through presence, language, and intentional action.

 2 Reinvention requires courage, humility, and a willingness to confront the truth of “what is,” not what you wish it to be.

 3 Every experience — even the storm — is part of the “how” that shapes who you are becoming.

💬 Memorable quotes:

 • “Looking back now, I see it was also my first lesson in the intoxicating power of absolute certainty… a force that would eventually transform thousands of lives while destroying others.”

 • “You have to be careful that you don’t allow them to give you your answer.”

 • “There’s an edge there… there’s light and dark.”

 • “People are thrown to being right, looking good, and needing to know the answer.”

📚 Connect with Marcia Martin:

 Website: marciamartin.com

 Book: Sex, Power, and Transformation

 Membership & Resources: marciamartintransform.com

If this episode challenged you, moved you, or lit a fire in your soul — share it with someone who’s ready to rise.

A rising tide raises all ships, and I invite you along on this journey to Evoke Greatness!

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Chapters

• 0:00 Fame, Power, And The Shadow
• 1:45 Welcome And Part Two Setup
• 2:45 Finding Voice In Male Rooms
• 7:30 Making Space And Equal Treatment
• 11:30 Attractive Power Versus Bitchiness
• 16:30 Leadership As Action, Not Title
• 21:30 Language That Creates Action
• 26:00 Practice Over Understanding
• 29:30 Mentors, Humility, And Feedback

Transcript

SPEAKER_00: 0:00

For some reason, there's something about fame, money, and power that you really have to be ready, or it can turn you. And you get caught up in your own stuff and start believing your own legend, you know. I've shared all of my frailties in this book because I couldn't tell the story without the dark side or the underbelly, the shadow. We all have a shadow. We all have that part of us that we haven't really reckoned with. We don't want to see that part of ourselves. We'd rather hide it from ourselves, including everybody else. But unless we face that part of ourselves, I don't think there is really the capacity to come to terms with being the really big human being that you can be.

SPEAKER_02: 0:52

Welcome to Evoke Greatness, the podcast for bold leaders and big dreamers who refuse to settle. I'm your host, Sunny. I started in Scrubs over 20 years ago, doing the gritty, unseen work and climbed my way to CEO. Every rung of that ladder taught me something worth passing on. Lessons in leadership, resilience, and what it really takes to rise. You'll hear raw conversations, unfiltered truths, and the kind of wisdom that ignites something deeper in you. Your courage, your conviction, your calling. This show will help you think bigger, lead better, and show up bolder in every part of your life. This is your place to grow. Let's rise together. Last week in part one, Marsha Martin took us inside the rise of the self-help empire. And today we go even deeper. Part two is where the story sharpens. We talk about the patterns that shape us, the power dynamics women navigate in male-dominated rooms, the shadow side of leadership, and the mindset required to reinvent yourself again and again, publicly and unapologetically. If you thought part one was revealing, part two is a masterclass. I think a lot of high-achieving women struggle to find their voice in probably scenarios similar to what you were in in those male-dominated spaces. I'm curious, what did you learn about navigating ego, authority, and being heard in rooms like that?

SPEAKER_00: 2:34

Well, first of all, you know from the book, my story is about patterns, also, the patterns that we all have from our childhood. And my particular pattern was the relationship I had with my father, always wanting to please him and uh wanting to be okay and thinking I was never going to be enough. So that carried out into my life until I was able to handle it myself, to be strong within my own voice, that I was always trying to please a man. Werner was the perfect man to come along because he had a big vision. And so I wanted to please him and fulfill the vision, do you see?

SPEAKER_01: 3:13

Right.

SPEAKER_00: 3:13

And I grew up in a man's world, which I still think it's kind of a man's world, yeah. Uh, as a young girl into a woman, and I've always been in the boardroom. I've always been with the boys. So I learned along the way um to play with the boys, to be with the boys. You know, I can run faster, swear harder, I can do all of those things, you know, I can tell dirty jokes, I can talk about sex. I, you know, boys love that. I don't know why, but they really do. And um and and I was determined to win because I wanted to win so much and please my father. And Werner gave me the space to excel. He was a smart man. He had mostly women on his team in the beginning. His his early um staff, we were all women. And women are very powerful. If they get a chance to show their power, to give their power, to contribute their power, it's not that there's not power there. There is. And he was smart enough as a man to realize let the women do it. They can probably do it better than the men. Um, so you know, as I was growing and learning, I had the space to learn. I don't think that a lot of women get that. And they have to be strong enough to make the space for themselves. And I learned to do that too, to make the space. I demanded that I was treated equally. But it's, you know, it's a learning exercise, is it not? You're a woman, you know. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02: 5:02

I'm curious when you say you demanded that, what did that look like? Because you don't just demand it out of the gates, right? It's a process. You have to like assess the situation and know, okay, what are my risks? Like if someone says absolutely you can demand something, someone could reject it. And so I'm sure you were assessing all of that based on your surroundings.

SPEAKER_00: 5:25

Well, yeah, but you have to understand that I learned a lot from Werner that uh and my aunt in the very early years. So I kind of did life backwards. Before I had any real um breakdowns like a divorce or a betrayal or losing money, any of those things. I learned how to be comfortable in my own skin. I didn't learn that because I had the breakdown. I learned it first. And then as the breakdowns came, because they always do in life, storms are around, storms will come. You better learn how to have an umbrella. Don't try to get away from the storm. You better learn how to have an umbrella, right? Learn the skills that can handle the storms. And Werner taught me a lot of those skills. And one of the skills that he taught me more than anything else was how to listen and how to be present. And so I would, and also he told me, always dance, play. So I danced through life. I played with the boys. You see, I didn't, I wasn't a bitch. You know, a lot of women use bitchiness way too often and way too soon. My uh advice to women is bitchiness is a great tool as long as you don't use it. Because the fear of bitchiness that you could be a bitch is much more uh productive in a woman's care toward a man than actually being a bitch. If you're a bitch, then he gets paralyzed because men can't move unless they're winning. Men are on two channels. Women are shades of gray, men are black and white, win and win-lose, uh, up, down, yes, no. It's and it's mostly win-lose. If they're not winning, they're losing. So when you frown at a man, he's losing. It's that simple. So, you know, you gotta be attractive. You gotta use your womanly seductive in the best sense, in the best sense as an attractor. See, I think the thing with women is they forget that they are the attractors. Women attract, women call, men respond. And if women understood that, that if a man isn't doing what you want him to do, and this is just a, I want to be very clear about this, this is a way to look at it. Okay, I don't think that I have the answer, and I can tell you if I find something that works better than this, I'll change my my methodology immediately. I'm not stuck to the answer that I'm giving. But I found this works better than anything else so far if I consider it from the perspective that women call, men respond. So if I'm not getting what I want from a man, it's my call needs to be changed. Not that the man needs to change. Men are easy. Just put the right call and they'll come right there. They want to produce for you. Men want their women to win. They want to give their women all the love and care and everything that their women want. The breakdown is the women. Women don't know what they want. How can you call if you don't know what you want? I mean, think about it, because women think I'm not worthy enough to ask for it, right? Right. So there's a couple of steps that you have to take to get to that point where you can say, demand something. And I don't mean demand like being bitchy. I mean demand like being attractive. And Werner gave me the space to learn that. You know, he gave me the freedom to be powerful. He said I could do it and let me do it. And I found out I could do it. And what I found out was the best way to do it was to be attractive, be fun. Have fun with the guys. Like, who wants to be with a bitch? And so, you know, they're the and the guys will do whatever you want them to do if they're having fun and they can see that they're winning. If they're giving you what you need and you want and they're producing, because men are producers. They want to go out and slay the dragon and bring it home and have you go, Oh my God, you're so big and strong. And then they can go, yes, I am. So I hope people don't take this in a small, stupid way. I'm making fun of it like a cartoon so that people can see it more. But that's what I mean by being attractive and demanding. It's not like being a bitch to demand. It's it's knowing who you are and that you can call something to you. You can attract. See, women think attracting is being attractive. And that it has something to do with how you look. It's your hair, it's your makeup, it's your weight, it's your no, no, no. It's your ability to call. It's your ability to seduce in the best sense. It's your ability to create a space where someone wants to play, and then to give them loving instructions of how to play and where we're going, and to acknowledge them when they do something right. You know, everybody has fun when they're winning. So I hope that answers a little bit what you add.

SPEAKER_02: 10:53

Yeah, absolutely. Thinking about the capacity uh and the impact that you've had, you've trained over 300,000 people globally. You've coached Fortune 1000 companies. Shifting back, when it comes to leadership, what separates the incremental improvement from that true transformation?

SPEAKER_00: 11:16

Well, I think leadership is an action, not a title. And I think most people think leadership is a title. So you're a leader if you're the manager, you're a leader if you're the vice president, you're the leader if you're running the meeting. And if you're not having those titles, everybody sits back and waits for the leader to lead. Whoever the leader is, they consider as the person that has the title. I don't see it that way. I think that leadership is an action. It's the capacity to have things move. It's the capacity to inspire, it's the capacity to create action. So if I'm sitting in the meeting and the leader isn't getting what needs to get done, done, I know that I have the capacity to move the thing forward because I'm a leader, even though I don't have the title. Now, I also understand language, and this is something that I teach the people that I coach and I teach the corporations that I train. Language is the bridge between the dream or the intention that you have and the reality of the thing that you create. And language is brings reality into existence. So you're speaking things into existence. You are living in the world that you spoke last year.

SPEAKER_02: 12:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 12:44

Do you see? So whatever you said about yourself, whatever you thought about yourself, whatever you languaged into existence way back then, um, it is the thing that now is the thing that is real. So I know that action is created by requests and offers, not assessments. And most people, if you go into a meeting or you have a conversation with them, they will be 100% assessments. I think we should, well, I think the reason that that happened is, well, I think that we shouldn't, well, I those are all assessments, and nothing creates action from an assessment. But if I say, my request is that you meet me tomorrow at four o'clock, are you willing to do that? You generate action with requests. That's the speech part of um language that creates action. So I think it's a combination of you learn certain skills and concepts and wisdom of how things work, how your mind works, how your emotions work, how your body works, what the laws of the universe that you live in, how language works. And then you actually um come from a place of authenticity and access your own wisdom and power and operate into the world instead of having the world operate on you. So it's a it's a lot of sh I don't want to say a lot of that, but a lot of stuff, yes, right all together that makes leadership happen because leadership is not a title, leadership is an action. And how you speak, how you listen, how you move in the world is all action. Except people haven't been taught how to speak or listen or move. They've been taught things that they understand, like math or geometry. Now here's the thing, you have two aspects of yourself that need to be educated because you learn in two ways. You learn through your mind and you learn through your body. Your mind learns by understanding. Everything that you and I are talking about, you understand now. But then if you're in some board meeting and then you say, now what did Marcia say I should do here to get some action? I kind of forget whatever it was. See, your body learns through practice. You have to do it. Just like when you rode a bicycle. And the first time you rode a bicycle, you fell off. Right. And that was and but you're willing to be a beginner when you learn to ride a bicycle, right? You're willing to make mistakes, look stupid, be wrong, not do it right, make a mess, until you practice enough that your body gets it. And once your body gets it, it you don't need to understand it. You don't need a book on how to ride a bicycle. It doesn't matter if you understand balance or not. It only matters if your body gets balance and actually rides the bicycle, right? And the only way your body gets to do that is to practice. So it's all this combination. And I find in my work human beings know more about how their car works than they do about themselves. Literally. I'm telling you. And I am so thrilled. I had Werner, I had my aunt, I had these amazing mentors. I had Buckminster Fuller, I had Peter Drucker, I had Warren Bennis, I had Swami Mukhtananda, I had people, I had Jerry Weintraub. These are my mentors, the some of the biggest, best minds in the world, and um who taught me all of this. And now I'm doing my best to teach others because I think, you know, that's I'm in the last quarter of my life, and this is the time where I want to give my wisdom away. It's why I want to be on podcasts. I want, you know, somebody to hear what I'm saying and be able to play it back and listen to it again and consider it and maybe learn some of the things I learned because it was worth learning how to be an effective human being.

SPEAKER_01: 16:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 16:56

Well, and you just just as you mentioned, you've worked alongside the Titans in this space. Tony Robbins, Canfield, Bob Hoffman, you know, the list goes on and on. I'm curious, though, from your perspective, what patterns do those world-class transformational leaders share? And are there any sort of blind spots that they miss?

SPEAKER_00: 17:19

I think that there are blind spots, and I think that some of them do share some of these things. And I think that all leaders, whether it's a personal development leader, whether it's a political leader, whether it's the chef in the kitchen, because you know, I train a lot of hotel executives, and I've met a lot of chefs that think that they know a lot more than anybody else in the hotel. It's it's that for some reason there's something about fame, money, and power that you really have to be ready, or it can turn you. And you get caught up in your own stuff and start believing your own legend, you know. Enough people tell you how wonderful you are. You start going, yeah, I am kind of wonderful, aren't I? I'm pretty good at this. So I think the ability to have humility and the ability to always question and consider that you don't know, and to come from that place rather than coming from, I know everything, and I know even so much that I know the answer for you. But something happens when they get that much adoration, that much money, that much power, where there is a, there's, there's a choice where they can keep that authentic humility and the commitment to be of service in the world, or it starts being about them. And, you know, I think it also goes back and forth. I think that many of the men and the women that I've worked with that are in those places of power have stumbled, just like I have. I've shared all of my frailties in this book. I've shared more than I should have shared, actually, but I did because I couldn't tell the story without the dark side or the underbelly, the shadow. We all have a shadow. We all have that part of us that we haven't really um reckoned with, that we haven't really, we don't want to see that part of ourselves. We'd rather hide it from ourselves, including everybody else. But unless we face that part of ourselves, I don't think there is really the capacity to come to terms with being the really big human being that you can be. And so I think it it it turns your head, power, money, fame. It turns your head. You have to know it and you have to see it, and you have to be willing. Here's another thing you have to be willing to take feedback. That's a big one. That's huge.

unknown: 19:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 19:53

You have to put people around you that disagree with you, that see it from a different point of view, that have another point of view. And I think that that's a little loss in our educational system. It used to be debate was one of the biggest things that we had in education. And what was so great about debate is if you've ever been on a debate team, you had to debate both sides. That's what always made debate great, is it didn't matter which side you got, you knew the next day you had to debate the other side. And so to see somebody else's point of view, to tolerate another point of view, to consider it possible, I think is such an attribute. And I think after a while we just surround ourselves when we have that much power with people that think we're so wonderful and agree with us. Because it's easier to get things done if everybody agrees with you. You can plow through something. Doesn't mean that it will work better, but it's certainly easier to get it done. And I think you have to be willing to have people around you that disagree and to really consider their possi the possibility that their position might be worthwhile considering.

SPEAKER_02: 21:03

The I I love the fascinating part about your story is uh that you've reinvented yourself multiple times.

SPEAKER_00: 21:10

You've that's fascinating and tiresome.

SPEAKER_02: 21:13

Oh, I'm sure. I'm sure, like from your lens. But I'm curious from that, you know, transformational coach to corporate trainer to humanitarian initiatives. What's the mindset required to evolve publicly and upon unapologetically?

SPEAKER_00: 21:30

Oh, interesting question. The mindset I always have is life is a gift. And all the experiences that um are there for in life are a gift to you. And that it's a human, it's you, the human being, that says it's bad or good. The experience doesn't say it's bad or good, the experience just is. And so how you respond to the experience is your choice. You can react and be unconscious and get triggered, or you can train yourself to be in present time and to be able to be here with it and confront it. Most people want to confront only what should be. People don't want to know what is. Well, it should be. Well, it shouldn't be this way. I mean, I'm like I'm talking to people and they say their whole conversation is around what it shouldn't be. Which think about it, it goes nowhere. Right. Okay, I guess that's good. I guess I agree it shouldn't be or it should, but it isn't. This is what is, and nobody wants to see that. They can see it with a tree. You know, you go out in the front yard and you look at a tree, you don't get pissed. You don't get upset with that tree for the way that it's standing or not blowing or blowing in the wind. But your husband comes and is in front of you and says something, you get pissed. Say, you shouldn't do that. You shouldn't be that. Rather than just being with what is there at the moment. And then if you're there with what is, that puts you where it is, which is the only place that you can move from in order to get to any other place. You have to be in the place of what's so before you can move any other place. And most people live in the place of what should be so. And so they can't get to any other place from that place because that place doesn't even exist. So I just think that, you know, it's that mindset of first of all, life is a gift and being with what is rather than what you wish it were. Just let's deal with what is and go from here. And and then to notice that I think a way that it works is to consider that my job is what, and the universe's job is how. So what I consider is I figure out what that's the intention, what I want to create, and come from that it's possible. And I'm allowing the universe to deliver to me the experience that needs to happen for it to actually happen, the how. Now, most people only want certain kinds of experiences, though. So, you know, it's like I deal with training thousands of people how to be great speakers, you know, and I have them up on the stage. And they will all say their intention is to learn to be a speaker. They want to be a great speaker. That's the what. And when they get on stage, they're embarrassed, they're afraid, they cry, they, and they don't want that to happen. They will do anything to have that not happen. And I try to explain to them if it's happening, it's what needs to happen. It's the how of you're going to get what you said you wanted, which is to be a great speaker. You have to go through this experience. How do I know you have to go through this experience? Because you're experiencing it. Somehow it got given to you. So this is it. So let's like welcome it instead of complaining about it, blaming about it, whining about it, wishing it weren't here, putting your head in the sand. Let's just like experience it and consider it's the perfect gift for you to learn what you need to learn, experience what you need to experience. And I've been through terrible things. I got a divorce, I lost money, you know, I've been betrayed. But like I said, I learned uh life the opposite way. I already learned how to deal with it when I was so young that now I know, welcome the experience. And it is what it is. And, you know, it's all gonna be okay in the end. That's what they said in the movie, right? And if it's not okay, then it's obviously not the end. So just keep paddling.

SPEAKER_02: 25:58

Well, as we wrap up, yes, I know I love it. Um, and it allows us to lean into the being of humans, right? We we are so busy trying to plot out the next step and how to avoid the hard things. And if we are just being in the space that we're in currently and taking the lessons and refining ourselves and getting better as a result, that's a win in my book. That's a win.

SPEAKER_00: 26:25

That's a win, right? Right. I always laugh at people that get mad at traffic. I mean, think about it. You're in traffic and you hit the steering wheel, or you yell at the person in the car next to you. It's so ridiculous. It's like why obviously traffic is going to be what it is, and it's predictable and it's happened before. So why don't you bring your makeup so you could, you know, put your makeup on or a jukebox so you could play some song or, you know, have a an audible book and enjoy the ride.

unknown: 27:01

Right.

SPEAKER_00: 27:02

Right.

SPEAKER_02: 27:04

Well, as we wrap up, there's always a question I love to ask. And so I'm really curious from your perspective. If it were your last day on earth, and of all of the things you've learned, the knowledge you've acquired, the experiences, and you could impart one piece of device to the world, the rest would go with you. What would it be?

SPEAKER_00: 27:23

I would say center first, then act. In other words, you're gonna go through tumbles, you're gonna get upset, you're gonna get angry, you're gonna get sad, you're gonna get triggered by things that happen, events are gonna throw themselves at you, the forces of the universe will come at you, there will be bad weather, you'll have stomach aches, you know, you won't get the job that you want. All of that's gonna happen, and it's going to throw you off center. But before you act, before you act, get yourself back in present time. Being centered is open, present, connected. Open is there's possibility. You're you're willing to consider it's okay. You're allowing the thing to happen. Present is you're here now. You're not worried about the future or distressed about the past. And connected is that you realize you're one of it with all of it. You're all connected. It isn't happening to you by yourself. Every movement you make causes the whole world to move. So center first, get yourself back in your body, get yourself back in present time before you act. Because then if you're centered, you can respond. If you're not centered, you're going to react. Choose a response that moves the ball down the court. You don't have to, I mean, blaming somebody doesn't really move the ball down the court. What does it need, what needs to happen in order for you to have the desired result that you're working on? Choose that. That's what I would say.

SPEAKER_02: 29:09

I love it. Well, I we will have all this in the show notes, but Marsha, where can people find out more about you, what you do, uh, bring you in to speak to their teams? Uh, where should we direct them to?

SPEAKER_00: 29:22

Well, go to marsha martin.com and it's M-A-R-C-I-A, M-A-R-T-I-N.com. And I have a membership club, and there's a 30-day free access to it, which is a digital library of my workshops and seminars and speaking engagements. And you can go to marsha martin transform.com and get the free gift. And then you can go to Amazon and buy my book, Sex, Power, and Transformation. Love it. Well, here it is.

SPEAKER_02: 29:53

Yeah, it's amazing. It is an emotional roller coaster. Um, but it's one of those where Yeah, in a good way. And you feel more grounded and impactful at the end with what you're able to go out and do with your story and all that you shared in it. So thank you for writing the book. Thank you for sharing your experiences with the world. I think we're we're better as a result of it.

SPEAKER_01: 30:20

Thank you, Sunny, so much. It's been an honor to be with you. Thank you for what you do as well. God bless you. My pleasure.

SPEAKER_02: 30:31

If today's episode challenged you, moved you, or lit a fire in your soul, don't keep it to yourself. Share it with somebody who's ready to rise. Could I ask you to take 30 seconds to leave a review? It's the best way to say thank you and help this show reach more bold leaders like you. Because this isn't just a podcast, it's a movement. We're not here to play small. We're here to lead loud, one bold and unapologetic step at a time. Until next time, stay bold, stay grounded, and make moves that make mediocre uncomfortable.